Re: Menushell.js
By: echicken to HusTler on Thu Aug 27 2020 02:55 pm

Re: Menushell.js
By: HusTler to MRO on Thu Aug 27 2020 09:53:16

Thanks for the offer. I just wanted to convey my thoughts on a menu
editor. I
understand the "Syncronet Way" of doing things. It's a bit archaic
but I can
get by. When I paid for BBS package back in the day I looked for
customization and support. I'm not

It's funny how we all perceive these things differently. I feel like using a menu editor is, if not "archaic" ("oldschool", perhaps), a bit clunky and cumbersome. Meanwhile, to me, a scripted menuing system allows for far more "modern" features and is extremely flexible.

Just wanted to put that out there; it's a matter of different paradi

when you are used to using bbs softwares with menu editors that's what you expect from synchronet. maybe we can have both some day.

i totally understand how these guys feel because i ran renegade and iniquity and other bbs softwares before switching to synchronet.
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Re: Menushell.js
By: MRO to HusTler on Thu Aug 27 2020 17:35:07

a menu editor is so so so extremely limiting.
i have all kinds of custom stuff in my menus. a menu editor couldnt accomplish that.

that depends on the menu editor and the foresight of the developer...

in my old RA setup, i had menu options that dropped you through other menu files that you never saw any output from but those menu files executed commands that would flip user flags and set security levels and drop you out
the other side looking at another menu on screen... just because it is a menu file doesn't mean that it has to display one menu screen and handle the options for it...

the best part about it was the dynamic display generation... there might be three "write mail" options but you only see one because of the access permissions to the others... at some point, more than one of those may be
active... instead of drawing a static screen with all three showing, the system would draw a screen with only those available to you on it...

we also had codes we could put in the screens we drew that could execute menu commands so while you are viewing this nice ansi being drawn, your security level is being updated and your access flags set... getting one's head
wrapped around it all was not easy but the finished product could be quite seamless...


)\/(ark

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Re: Menushell.js
By: MRO to echicken on Thu Aug 27 2020 05:36 pm

when you are used to using bbs softwares with menu editors that's what you expect from synchronet. maybe we can have both some day.

i totally understand how these guys feel because i ran renegade and iniquity and other bbs softwares before switching to synchronet.

It seems most BBS sysops are fine with making batch files/shell scripts to do various work for the BBS, but I'm not sure how many BBS sysops would feel about learning a more fully-fledged programming language to write a command shell. I suppose even Baja might seem intimidating to some new Synchronet sysops. Every so often, I've seen questions from new Synchronet sysops posted on Dove-Net asking how to change menu behavior etc., and some seem a little apprehensive or confused at first about Baja/JS command shells.

Nightfox

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Re: Menushell.js
By: Rampage to MRO on Fri Aug 28 2020 08:56 am

in my old RA setup, i had menu options that dropped you through other menu files that you never saw any output from but those menu files executed commands that would flip user flags and set security levels and drop you out the other side looking at another menu on screen... just because it is a menu file doesn't mean that it has to display one menu screen and handle the options for it...

the best part about it was the dynamic display generation... there might be three "write mail" options but you only see one because of the access permissions to the others... at some point, more than one of those may be active... instead of drawing a static screen with all three showing, the system would draw a screen with only those available to you on it...

we also had codes we could put in the screens we drew that could execute menu commands so while you are viewing this nice ansi being drawn, your security level is being updated and your access flags set... getting one's head wrapped around it all was not easy but the finished product could be quite seamless...

Yep, I used to use RA, and you could do some cool stuff with it and its menuing system etc. once you wrapped your head around it.

Nightfox

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On 8/27/2020 6:53 AM, HusTler wrote:

Thanks for the offer. I just wanted to convey my thoughts on a menu
editor. I understand the "Syncronet Way" of doing things. It's a bit
archaic but I can get by. When I paid for BBS package back in the day
I looked for customization and support. I'm not going to see these
things with free software. I can deal with that. I still think a menu
editor would be nice to have for new SysOps.

I think that a few people have gone down the path of creating a menu
edited shell... the issue is, once someone understands things well
enough to create a menu editor, they no longer find the exercise
interesting as they can just edit their mods/shells directly.

I've started and dropped creating a UI for editing BIND files and every
time, I wind up just re-learning enough to make the changes I wanted to directly, then give up on creating a more friendly ui/cli interface.

It's really a mixed bag, especially with non-commercial software as
things like a menu editor, while they would be nice are largely
unneeded. It's a bit more difficult for a Sysop to just jump in and
make changes, but that said, it gets to be "easy enough" that working
around the problem becomes a non-issue.

There's also the desire for more interactive menus, lightbars, listboxes
etc. I looked at my listbox menu, and frankly the code is scary to me
now that 17 years or so has gone by. I'm not even quite sure if it
works right or well, I've been re-creating some of my mods.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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­ Synchronet ­ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20

On 8/27/2020 11:55 AM, echicken wrote:

It's funny how we all perceive these things differently. I feel like using a menu editor is, if not "archaic" ("oldschool", perhaps), a bit clunky and cumbersome. Meanwhile, to me, a scripted menuing system allows for far more "modern" features and is extremely flexible.

Just wanted to put that out there; it's a matter of different paradigms rather than one concept being older than the other.

I'm largely of the same mindset... I don't think I'd have the patience
to go through what I used to have to do with Renegade... Really complex
menus to get lightbar from the user perspective combined with having to
hex edit the renegade.ovr file every single release for custom mods.

I love that with Synchronet you can pretty much work around or outright replace any built in functionality you like. The hardest part for me,
is I've spent about a decade now using Node style build tooling, modules
and npm; so dealing with Synchronet's load/require interfaces is a bit
alien in practice. That and not having the autocomplete/tooling that VS
Code gives you isn't very fun as well.

Ispy said he created some TypeScript definitions and build system for Synchronet and should probably look those up... It's yet another step
removed from edit/run that you currently get with Synchronet though.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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­ Synchronet ­ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20

Re: Re: Menushell.js
By: Tracker1 to echicken on Fri Aug 28 2020 14:19:02

replace any built in functionality you like. The hardest part for me,
is I've spent about a decade now using Node style build tooling, modules and npm; so dealing with Synchronet's load/require interfaces is a bit alien in practice. That and not having the autocomplete/tooling that VS Code gives you isn't very fun as well.

Much the same, where JS is concerned I do a lot of work with node (and lately React), so there's stuff from that space that I'm accustomed to (tooling, dependency management, import/require and so on).

I've been working on Synchronet projects in parallel all along, so switching between the two mindsets is sort of second nature for me. Kind of a matter of not getting set in my JS ways. (This has also been helpful when I've had to write JS for other oddball environments, like in the Rhino engine embedded in some Java applications.)

I'd like it if we had some form of versioned package (and dependency) management, and if the module import/export style were more along the lines of ES6 'import' or node.js require(). And of course there's ES6 stuff that I miss.

On the other hand, Synchronet JS is sort of "back to basics" in a fun way. Between ES5, stuff being mostly synchronous, the sort of wild west of the exec directory tree, concerns about keeping things backward compatible, etc., it can keep you on your toes and require some creative thinking.

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Re: Menushell.js
By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri Aug 28 2020 12:35 pm

do various work for the BBS, but I'm not sure how many BBS sysops would feel about learning a more fully-fledged programming language to write a command shell. I suppose even Baja might seem intimidating to some new Synchronet sysops. Every so often, I've seen questions from new Synchronet sysops posted on Dove-Net asking how to change menu behavior etc., and some seem a little apprehensive or confused at first about Baja/JS command shells.

Nightfox

most people that i've encountered that run mystic and other softwares say they dont touch synchronet because you have to be a programmer to run it.
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Re: Menushell.js
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Aug 29 2020 01:24 pm

most people that i've encountered that run mystic and other softwares say they dont touch synchronet because you have to be a programmer to run it.

That's kinda what I suspected, and it's probably a good reason to have a menu editor, to at least cover the basics.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Menushell.js
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Aug 29 2020 01:24 pm

most people that i've encountered that run mystic and other softwares say they dont touch synchronet because you have to be a programmer to run it.

Or... a... wannabe programmer! Muahahaha.

It's fun as heck trying to figure this s__t out!

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